6/23, Oregano, PMPS 329 - Not eating, shoot? | Feline Diabetes Management Board

6/23, Oregano, PMPS 329 - Not eating, shoot?

Tim & Pookey

Tim & Pookey

Active member
All, @wade asked me to post this for him. Shot time is 9:30PM EST.

"Oregano’s shot time is coming up and she won’t eat supper. Has not felt well all day. No fever and we think her tummy hurts. Drinking lots of water per usual. I am hoping you’ll give me your advice on this.

Do I give her her insulin even though she’s had no food since this am? She’s reading 345 as of now.

I have scoured the message boards and can’t find any answers on this.

Thank you in advance.

Wade and oregano
Oregano's Spreadsheet"

Thank you. Tim
 
You could try a delay and see if she'll eat or her numbers keep rising. Do you think you could assist feed her if she won't eat on her own? You do have a couple hours until onset and the insulin kicks in. You can always give at least a half dose, which is what kitties getting anaesthesia who cannot eat are allowed to get. If I thought I could syringe at least 2/3 of Neko's meal into her, she got her full dose.

Is she sniffing her food at all? Drinking lots of water can be a sign of nausea. Did you try a different food? Other alternative here:
I don't see spreadsheet values for yesterday and today. I like to see recent data before commenting on dose.
 
Is he testing urine ketones because if she’s not wanting to eat and her BGs are high, we want to be sure she doesn’t have any ketones. If she has ketones, she needs “some” insulin has Wendy discussed plus lots of calories and water if she can keep them down.

Does he have anything for nausea there like ondansetron (zofran)? If she is nauseous, she needs something to address that so she might feel like eating.

Sending sweet Oregano lots of healing light and vines.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
You could try a delay and see if she'll eat or her numbers keep rising. Do you think you could assist feed her if she won't eat on her own? You do have a couple hours until onset and the insulin kicks in. You can always give at least a half dose, which is what kitties getting anaesthesia who cannot eat are allowed to get. If I thought I could syringe at least 2/3 of Neko's meal into her, she got her full dose.

Is she sniffing her food at all? Drinking lots of water can be a sign of nausea. Did you try a different food? Other alternative here:
I don't see spreadsheet values for yesterday and today. I like to see recent data before commenting on dose.
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so i had to update her spreadsheet via my phone with one hand while assist-feeding her with the other tonight. (my gen z daughter had to help me download the apps....i have a lot to learn on the tech front still but am getting there). she had a great day yesterday/last night/this am until about 3 ish when the numbers popped up, perhaps because she got a reduced dose this am. she ate probably 75% of her normal amt tonight so i did the full 2.75 and am going to stay up with her til around 4 or so and make sure she's good. i think she was/is nauseated....her tummy is making odd gurgling noises and she pooped this am which is off schedule for her. might be the antibiotic, though i hope not because that seems to be knocking her uti out nicely.

i am also getting appetite stimulant tomorrow so we have that on hand in case this continues.

thank you for replying--we both really appreciate it. :)

--wade and oregano
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Is he testing urine ketones because if she’s not wanting to eat and her BGs are high, we want to be sure she doesn’t have any ketones. If she has ketones, she needs “some” insulin has Wendy discussed plus lots of calories and water if she can keep them down.

Does he have anything for nausea there like ondansetron (zofran)? If she is nauseous, she needs something to address that so she might feel like eating.

Sending sweet Oregano lots of healing light and vines.
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we don't have ondansetron but are picking it up tomorrow. i test her ketones with the strips almost daily and it's always "normal." i do keep a close eye on that.
 
Mary & Jude said:
Let's tag some folks: @Wendy&Neko @Sienne & Gabby (GA) @Marje and Gracie

Tim is Wade able to read the forum? And just not post??
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yeah tim saved the day for me there. I did not know how to post from the phone (or update the spreadsheet) but do now. normally my wife is here to split duties with me but i had to hold her dish for her to eat tonight so could not get to the computer. that glitch is fixed now thankfully.
 
wade said:
yeah tim saved the day for me there. I did not know how to post from the phone (or update the spreadsheet) but do now. normally my wife is here to split duties with me but i had to hold her dish for her to eat tonight so could not get to the computer. that glitch is fixed now thankfully.
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That's great, Wade. I only asked because I wasn't sure what the situation would be for the helpers.
Good luck with sweet Oregano!
 
Mary & Jude said:
That's great, Wade. I only asked because I wasn't sure what the situation would be for the helpers.
Good luck with sweet Oregano!
Click to expand...
update on oregano: i just pooped her and she was almost non-responsive. normally she flops over and helps and then fusses a bit when i clean her afterwards. tonight there was none of that. she's awake but close to non responsive. she's aware i'm there holding here but not interested, not leaning into my pets or interested in my voice or anything, all of which is not normal. we got all her labs and scans from the vet a few weeks ago and aside from some slightly elevated BUN/Kidney markers everything came back good. lungs, heart all normal, no other issues in her blood or urine (other than the uti, for which they prescribed the antibiotic, which seems to be working well).

i am wondering if i should let her sleep or take her in tonight to be examined. given her labs and scans were all good (again, but for the uti which seems to be responding well to the antibiotic) i was going to let her sleep through the night in my lap and see how she eats in the am, then take her in if she won't. but doing nothing seems a bad idea if she needs to be seen now.
 
wade said:
update on oregano: i just pooped her and she was almost non-responsive. normally she flops over and helps and then fusses a bit when i clean her afterwards. tonight there was none of that. she's awake but close to non responsive. she's aware i'm there holding here but not interested, not leaning into my pets or interested in my voice or anything, all of which is not normal. we got all her labs and scans from the vet a few weeks ago and aside from some slightly elevated BUN/Kidney markers everything came back good. lungs, heart all normal, no other issues in her blood or urine (other than the uti, for which they prescribed the antibiotic, which seems to be working well).

i am wondering if i should let her sleep or take her in tonight to be examined. given her labs and scans were all good (again, but for the uti which seems to be responding well to the antibiotic) i was going to let her sleep through the night in my lap and see how she eats in the am, then take her in if she won't. but doing nothing seems a bad idea if she needs to be seen now.
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I’m looking at her ss—what is her bg now. She was in the pinks prior to her PMPS, so I’m assuming her bg is not too low now? That’s the thing you certainly want to be careful of. I can’t comment on the other aspects of her condition, but if you think you need to take her in, I would do that. I always err on the side of caution with Jude.
 
Mary & Jude said:
I’m looking at her ss—what is her bg now. She was in the pinks prior to her PMPS, so I’m assuming her bg is not too low now? That’s the thing you certainly want to be careful of. I can’t comment on the other aspects of her condition, but if you think you need to take her in, I would do that. I always err on the side of caution with Jude.
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she's reading "hi" now which his 400 or higher per the libre 2. she had a lower 2.5 this am and the normal 2.75 tonight. that and whatever else she has going on that clearly has her not feeling well is all i can attribute these higher numbers too. she'd been doing great the couple days before, up until 3 pm today.
 
for some reason all the white cells that have no data in them have gone red on oregano's spreadsheet. anyone know how to fix that? i must have hit something but have not figured out how to undo that.
 
wade said:
for some reason all the white cells that have no data in them have gone red on oregano's spreadsheet. anyone know how to fix that? i must have hit something but have not figured out how to undo that.
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My view of the ss looks okay.

I would take her into the vet the first chance you get. You know her, and you know when she’s not her normal healthy self.
 
I see she's been on an antibiotic a little over a week. Is she also on a probiotic? Antibiotics can ruin the tummy flora, making them feel unwell. I can say the same with personal experience too. Tummy noises can also be a side effect. A good probiotic (multiple strains, not Fortiflora) can help make the tummy feel better. Give any probiotic a couple hours apart from an antibiotic. Ondansetron will also help.

I'm glad she ate 75% of her food, that might help settle her tummy too. Hoping your sweet girl feels better soon.
 
wade said:
she's reading "hi" now which his 400 or higher per the libre 2. she had a lower 2.5 this am and the normal 2.75 tonight. that and whatever else she has going on that clearly has her not feeling well is all i can attribute these higher numbers too. she'd been doing great the couple days before, up until 3 pm today.
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Nonresponsive definitely worries me. It’s your call but I am always super cautious even if it means a middle of the night ER visit. Of course, it is much later there and your vet might be open in a few hours.
 
update: I took her to the
Marje and Gracie said:
Please update as soon as you can. 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
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hi Marje and team, i intended to sleep through the night with oregano on my lap, so we began that process around 11 last night and by 2 am it had become clear that she was not getting better. she was extremely lethargic, uninterested, no purring, no fussing if i fiddled with her ears, etc. so i took her into the emergency vet (we are blessed with a wonderful and massive emergency vet here in our city) where they know here well. they did blood work, exam, urine culture, and ultrasound.

she was badly dehydrated and has become slightly anemic. her white blood cell count (normal range i'm told is 20k) was 44k two weeks ago when we had her labs done then and is up to 68k now. so she's fighting something. could also be cancer they said but they ruled that out with the ultrasound. ultrasound also ruled out internal bleeding, which is a key driver of anemia.

they are thinking (for now) that it's possible the uti has gone up her ureters to her kidneys, which would also explain the elevated creatinine and BUN readings (both have gotten worse since her labs were done a couple weeks ago.

they are keeping her overnight but i am going in at 830 my time to make her supper and visit with her, and to take her an old slightly smelly sweatshirt of mine that she just loves to lie on, so that she has that to sleep with tonight. when she has that sweatshirt she makes biscuits and stretches out and purrs nonstop so i want her to have that tonight.

i think i am hoping it is the uti in the kidneys because i feel like that's treatable; i am also aware that older cats and particularly older cats with diabetes, are susceptible to kidney failure, and that this is often terminal, and likely painful if i let it go on too long. and the thought of that just crushes me.

it all sucks. i know the end whenever it comes is truly terrible--i've had pets i've had to put to sleep over the years and it is always awful. the struggle for me now is to make sure she doesn't experience pain, and enjoys ever remaining day as much as possible, and has as many as i can possibly give her.

sorry to go dark there--been an emotional and difficult day. i had to leave her at the hospital a few hours ago and have to leave her overnight and that's rough.
 
Sending healing thoughts your way and big hugs 🤗 to Oregano. ❤️‍🩹

It is so hard to have to leave them at the hospital but she is in the best place to help her right now. Fingers crossed it’s just an infection that they can get under control quickly. ❤️
 
I've been thinking about Oregano all day, so I'm glad to get your update. It sounds like you're sort of in "we don't know yet" land, waiting to see if they can find something definitive. The elevated white blood count would make me think infection, too, and I'm sort of hoping that all they need to do is give her a good round of abs to knock that out.

She's lucky to have you caring so well for her, and I'm so glad you went ahead and got her into the vets as quickly as you did. I know that the sweatshirt will be a big help for her while she's away from you tonight.

Sending all the healing vines 🌸🌸🌿🌿🍃🍃🍃🌿🌿🌼🌼 to your precious girl.

Please keep us updated.
 
Kidney infection could indeed be an answer. That would mean a longer course of antibiotics. Hoping the clinic comes up with a definitive answer soon.

I love the image in my mind of her making biscuits on the sweatshirt. Excellent idea.
 
Been thinking of you and Oregano all day. Sending more vines and prayers your way.
She will be so comforted by your sweatshirt, Wade.
Please take care of yourself, too. It’s so hard when they are not well.
Hoping she can come home very soon 🫂🙏❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹
 
wade said:
update: I took her to the

hi Marje and team, i intended to sleep through the night with oregano on my lap, so we began that process around 11 last night and by 2 am it had become clear that she was not getting better. she was extremely lethargic, uninterested, no purring, no fussing if i fiddled with her ears, etc. so i took her into the emergency vet (we are blessed with a wonderful and massive emergency vet here in our city) where they know here well. they did blood work, exam, urine culture, and ultrasound.

she was badly dehydrated and has become slightly anemic. her white blood cell count (normal range i'm told is 20k) was 44k two weeks ago when we had her labs done then and is up to 68k now. so she's fighting something. could also be cancer they said but they ruled that out with the ultrasound. ultrasound also ruled out internal bleeding, which is a key driver of anemia.

they are thinking (for now) that it's possible the uti has gone up her ureters to her kidneys, which would also explain the elevated creatinine and BUN readings (both have gotten worse since her labs were done a couple weeks ago.

they are keeping her overnight but i am going in at 830 my time to make her supper and visit with her, and to take her an old slightly smelly sweatshirt of mine that she just loves to lie on, so that she has that to sleep with tonight. when she has that sweatshirt she makes biscuits and stretches out and purrs nonstop so i want her to have that tonight.

i think i am hoping it is the uti in the kidneys because i feel like that's treatable; i am also aware that older cats and particularly older cats with diabetes, are susceptible to kidney failure, and that this is often terminal, and likely painful if i let it go on too long. and the thought of that just crushes me.

it all sucks. i know the end whenever it comes is truly terrible--i've had pets i've had to put to sleep over the years and it is always awful. the struggle for me now is to make sure she doesn't experience pain, and enjoys ever remaining day as much as possible, and has as many as i can possibly give her.

sorry to go dark there--been an emotional and difficult day. i had to leave her at the hospital a few hours ago and have to leave her overnight and that's rough.
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I’m so sorry your precious girl had to stay at the vet but I’m so glad you took her and they are addressing her issues. CKD is treatable if caught early enough and the correct treatments given. I had two cats live close to five years with it, both very stable and both passed from an unrelated health issue. If it is CKD, let us know ow and we can give you some great references to help know how best to treat it.

I hope your visit later today went well and she’s responding to treatment. More healing light for your little Oregano.
 
Thinking of you and your beautiful Oregano. I hope you guys are doing okay. I hope it’s just an infection and they can knock it out with some more antibiotics. That was a really smart idea to bring her your sweatshirt that she loves. That will give her some comfort. I’m so sorry you have to leave her overnight, I know how hard that is. I hope you can get some rest and she’ll be perked up and feeling better in the morning. Sending so many healing vines your way 🍃🍃🍃❤️❤️❤️
 
Mary & Jude said:
I've been thinking about Oregano all day, so I'm glad to get your update. It sounds like you're sort of in "we don't know yet" land, waiting to see if they can find something definitive. The elevated white blood count would make me think infection, too, and I'm sort of hoping that all they need to do is give her a good round of abs to knock that out.

She's lucky to have you caring so well for her, and I'm so glad you went ahead and got her into the vets as quickly as you did. I know that the sweatshirt will be a big help for her while she's away from you tonight.

Sending all the healing vines 🌸🌸🌿🌿🍃🍃🍃🌿🌿🌼🌼 to your precious girl.

Please keep us updated.
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thank you. :) I just returned from the vet. made her supper and gave her her insulin, and hung out with her for a couple hours. i wrapped her up in my old sweatshirt and she loved it. she looked so much better after a day of fluids--taking her in was definitely the right call. now we just need to see what to do about the elevated wbc. and i get to bring her home tomorrow! :) double-feature night tomorrow for oregano and daddy!!!
 
Tim -

When the UTI was diagnosed, did the vet get the urine sample via cystocentesis (needle into the bladder) and then run a culture and sensitivity? A lot of vets don't do this but the C & S allows them to target the specific bacteria that's causing the problem. As Wendy noted, if this is a kidney infection, it means a longer course of antibiotics but it is treatable.
 
Oh, Wade, I'm so sorry that you and your sweet girl have been going through this! I'm so glad that you decided to bring her in, and I hope she's doing even better today than she was yesterday. Bringing her your sweatshirt was such a good idea and I'm sure it brought her a lot of comfort. 💖 Thinking of you both and can't wait to hear how she's doing.
 
Sienne & Gabby (GA) said:
Tim -

When the UTI was diagnosed, did the vet get the urine sample via cystocentesis (needle into the bladder) and then run a culture and sensitivity? A lot of vets don't do this but the C & S allows them to target the specific bacteria that's causing the problem. As Wendy noted, if this is a kidney infection, it means a longer course of antibiotics but it is treatable.
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hey Tim, sorry for the late reply. yes sir, they went directly into the bladder to extract the urine. i confirmed that with them.
 
Hi everyone, Thank you all for the thoughts, replies, and prayers. it has been a rough few days here but it seems like there may be good news.

they are keeping her another night (tonight) to monitor her fluids. the infection has reached her kidneys and so they have switched out her antibiotic to a stronger one (name escapes me now--Prado-something--but i get the script tomorrow so will know then) which they began tonight. one thing i learned today--per the vet, with all the IV fluids they are giving her it will (and did) drive her BG down pretty fast. She was reading 111 this am, and they requested i give one unit lantus, so i did, and she dipped down to 79 inside of about 30 min. kept on going down to, all the way to 58, at which point they gave her a snack that brought her up to the mid 70's again. but she surfed all day today between 75 and 97, which i know are good healing numbers, and the tech there checked her every hour per my request (the scanner confirms this, which is nice). they were also very strict about zero snacks for the 12 hours between her breakfast and supper (which happens on the 9's each day).

they gave her one unit tonight as well (she was at 299 when i shot at 930 this pm, at the vet's) but because she is going to be getting iv fluids throughout the night they wanted the insulin dose low.

they are also going to be sending her home tomorrow am with subcue fluid for me to administer on a daily basis going forward. they are concerned that even with all the water she drinks, and it is a good bit, that dehydration is a risk.

my wife and i spent a couple hours there this evening with oregano and she was bright-eyed and alert and seemed to feel good. MUCH better than when i took her in. once again, Know Thy Cat is an important rule to follow. i can't bear to think what might have happened had i waited longer to take her in.

thank you everyone for the thoughts, prayers, and healing vines--oregano and i are deeply appreciative. I can't wait to bring her home tomorrow. we have three movies and a nap planned. :)

i hope everyone has a great night tonight (or day, wherever you may be) :)

--wade and oregano
 
Thanks for the update Wade. Really glad they got it figured out and have a plan for you guys.

wade said:
once again, Know Thy Cat is an important rule to follow. i can't bear to think what might have happened had i waited longer to take her in.
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Great reminder, and such a good decision you made…
 
Thanks for the update Wade. I’m so glad they have figured out what is wrong. It sounds like they are right on top of everything, and I know that’s a relief for you. Jude and I are sending all the healing vines 🍃🍃🍃🍃🍃🍃 and he is now asking when we are going to have an evening of three movies and a nap 😜

Keep us posted!
 
they are keeping her another night (tonight) to monitor her fluids. the infection has reached her kidneys and so they have switched our her antibiotic to a stronger one (name escapes me now but i get the script tomorrow so will know then) which they began tonight. one thing i learned today--per the vet, with all the IV fluids they are giving her it will (and did) drive her BG down pretty fast. She was reading 111 this am, and they requested i give one unit lantus, so i did, and she dipped down to 79 inside of about 30 min. kept on going down to, all the way to 58, at which point they gave her a snack that brought her up to the mid 70's again. but she surfed all day today between 75 and 97, which i know are good healing numbers.

they gave her one unit tonight as well (she was at 299 when i shot at 930 this pm, at the vet's) but because she is going to be getting iv fluids throughout the night they wanted the insulin dose low.

they are also going to be sending her home tomorrow am with subcue fluid for me to administer on a daily basis going forward.

my wife and i spent a couple hours there this evening with oregano and she was bright-eyed and alert and seemed to feel good. MUCH better than when i took her in. once again, Know Thy Cat is an important rule to follow. i can't bear to think what might have happened had i waited longer to take her in.

thank you everyone for the thoughts, prayers, and healing vines--oregano and i are deeply appreciative. I can't wait to bring her home tomorrow. we have three movies and a nap planned. :)

i hope everyone has a great night tonight (or day, wherever you may be) :)

--wade and oregano
 
Hi Wade, so glad Oregano is doing better and getting great care. Wishing you all a very calm time ahead as you bring her home.
I’m sure she’ll be so happy to be home with both of you watching movies and napping together.
Good luck giving fluids, she’s so lucky to have such caring parents 💕
Sending lots more healing vines and prayers
🙏🙏🙏🍃🍃🍃🍃🍃🍃🍃🙏🙏🙏
 
I am so happy to hear such a great report, Wade! I’ll be even happier when your sweet girl is watching movies with you. 💕💕

I’m sorry we didn’t forewarn you about the fluids. It affects each cat differently but often not quite so dramatically as your little one. Subq fluids will also drop the BG but we can help you with the best time in the cycle to give them if you have flexibility.

I’m glad Wendy linked our video on giving subq fluids. Let me know if you have any questions. Keep in mind when vets demo it, they often use 18g needles which are like harpoons by it goes fast. For a calmer cat where you don’t have to be in such a rush, the 21g are better. The vets will often send you home with 18g but you can ask for 21g.

Tons of healing vines for your little girl. 🍃🍃🍃🍃
 
Marje and Gracie said:
I am so happy to hear such a great report, Wade! I’ll be even happier when your sweet girl is watching movies with you. 💕💕

I’m sorry we didn’t forewarn you about the fluids. It affects each cat differently but often not quite so dramatically as your little one. Subq fluids will also drop the BG but we can help you with the best time in the cycle to give them if you have flexibility.

I’m glad Wendy linked our video on giving subq fluids. Let me know if you have any questions. Keep in mind when vets demo it, they often use 18g needles which are like harpoons by it goes fast. For a calmer cat where you don’t have to be in such a rush, the 21g are better. The vets will often send you home with 18g but you can ask for 21g.

Tons of healing vines for your little girl. 🍃🍃🍃🍃
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Hi Marge, longer updated coming here shortly but wanted to thank you for the guidance on the fluids. i do have flexibility and can give it anytime. we have been doing it in the am, about half an hour after her am shot, but can do it anytime. it really seems to help her. there is a noticeable difference in her perkiness after she gets that camel hump. :) and the urine....boy does it make her urinate a bunch. but so far the antibiotics seem to be working so hopefully when i take her back this thursday they tell me it's the right medicine and we can complete the course.
 
Mary & Jude said:
Hi @wade, I had Oregano on my mind and wanted to check in and see how she is doing.
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Hey Mary, thank you for checking in. she's doing great. the antibiotics really seem to be working, and while she is not the biggest fan of the 100 ml of fluid each day, she is substantially happier and perkier and more like her usual purring self after she gets it. i've got it down to about 45 seconds to get the 100 ml into her and aside from a little grumbling she doesn't even protest much. and i've got her bed set up in ours now so she sleeps next to me which has done wonders for my sleep. i get up at 3 and then 6 to check her, change out her pee pad, and refill her water dish and she purrs through all of it. has made night times nice again. i don't know why i didn't think of that earlier.
 
Staci & Ivy said:
Hi Wade, so glad Oregano is doing better and getting great care. Wishing you all a very calm time ahead as you bring her home.
I’m sure she’ll be so happy to be home with both of you watching movies and napping together.
Good luck giving fluids, she’s so lucky to have such caring parents 💕
Sending lots more healing vines and prayers
🙏🙏🙏🍃🍃🍃🍃🍃🍃🍃🙏🙏🙏
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Thanks Staci. it's great to have her home. and really nice to hear her purr all the time again. it's become one of my favorite sounds. :)
 
anyone have any tips for doing the sub-cue fluids? oregano just laid there for the first two mornings, but she's wise to us now and is not a fan of that needle. it takes two hands to push the solution through that tube, so a second person (my wife) has to hold the needle in there and it's no picnic. we get it done, and the whole thing from start to finish doesn't take more than 45 seconds or so (it's 100 ml's) but it's a rough minute. i am really hopeful when i take her in tomorrow for her follow up that the vet doesn't think she needs the fluids forever like that.

in better news, she is almost entirely on soft food now. she's gotten to where she likes it for her snacks now too as long as i mix it and mash it up to the consistency of pudding with warm water. i am thinking that will help as well, being off the crunchies, but i do still think she is going to need to come up to 2.75 or even 3 units before i can get her down into the 100's for the bulk of the days. 2 more days after tonight's dose at 2.5 and we'll know for certain.

thanks all--i hope everyone has a great night. :)

--oregano and wade
 
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